Kim Kardashian and Kris Jenner

Host: You guys, both of you have created a remarkable empire. That's why I wanted to talk to you because I think you have changed culture, you've changed social media, you changed marketing, and you changed the way we all think about so much of this. Just to give everybody, a little bit, some stats here.

Kris, has trademarked Momager, as in manager. Between Kim, Khloe, Kourtney, Kylie, and Kendall, there are 600 million Instagram followers for this family. Kylie's, business is worth a billion dollars.

You just started SKIMS, and I'm told, sold $2 million of product in literally the first couple minutes of it going live. And it's just an extraordinary thing that has happened, over these past close to 20 years, that we so many of us, have watched you grow up, frankly, on TV, and now social media.

And so where I wanted to start with you in terms of how you've built this, and it's not just you've done it once, you've done it now many times, as the momager of this family and with so many things that you've been doing, is what the plan was. Or was there ever a plan for this to happen?

Kris Jenner: Well, I think, you know, it, I think it's important to remember that when we first, got started and started filming our show back in the early 2000s, there was barely Twitter. And I remember Ryan Seacrest calling me up and saying, "You know, you gotta tell Kim about this little thing called Twitter, because she might find it really helpful in, you know, some business stuff."

And Kim really was the first one in my family that really taught the rest of us how to navigate that platform, and then all the other ones that were out at the time. And we were just. My kids were barely off this thing called a two-way that was the phone, and pagers, and all this other stuff.

And it was so funny, because technology was happening so fast. So when we first started and we realized that the show was gonna be a success, that was basically the foundation for everything else that we were able to do. And Kim and I would sit at the end of Kim Kardashian: Remember you said that, and then when you guys see season 18, please all tweet her and remind her

That she said that our show was Foundation. Foundation. The foundation. Things have changed. Host: Oh, well, let me ask you Let me ask you about that foundation and the change, because one of the things we've been talking about a lot recently is this issue of a fragmented media.

Mm-hmm. You guys started, and I think to some degree created, a franchise on TV, traditional linear TV first, right? Yes. Yes. And I wonder, if you were to do it today using just social media, whether you think it would work, whether it would work the same, whether it would be different? Kim Kardashian: I'm guessing my mom would say it would work the same.

She is a big fan of, like, building a brand in social media, and using your voice, and believing in yourself that you can make it happen through that platform. I think I'm a little bit more traditional, where I think there was some magic of us starting on TV and really building up an audience, and then the magic of timing, of being around at the same time that social media was created.

I think there was just, like, a hit with the TV, and then another hit with social media. And so when I choose to promote a product, where some people, I think maybe younger generations, will just use social media, I love doing traditional TV. Host: Like Kylie would do.

What would Kylie do? Kim Kardashian: Yeah. Well, she would probably do just social media.

Right. If she's launching a Right. It would be strictly on social media. I love to go and do the rounds, and do the night shows.

I mean, I was, I was, talking to Kendall and Kylie about, you know, the days of Leno and Letterman, and they looked at me and was like, "Who?" And I was, like, mortified. Yeah. I was so mortified.

And but it's really funny, and it just shows, you know. Kris Jenner: But there is something to be said about the way we started. The audience that we have now, and the people that follow us, and the consumers that buy our things, are the people that became emotionally invested in the family.

And there was always a family member that somebody either, you know, loved or you know, wanted to watch their journey. And everybody saw the kids grow up on TV for the last decade or so. Host: Well, and that's what's so interesting to me, because it's, it's generational, right?

I mean, Totally, yes. And you've actually now sort of almost segmented out, if you will, so many different demographic markets in terms of both age and all sorts of. And just how people approach the family.

So that's what I was thinking. When you guys create products now, do you guys sit around and say, "My brand, my. The Kim brand represents this, the Kylie brand represents this, the Khloe brand represent."

They're, they're all spaced out. And so how does this work? Kris Jenner: Well, they're all separate businesses, for sure, and I think everybody has their own completely different demographic.

And even if you think about Kim and Kylie, for example, they're what? 16 years apart. And you know, that's two. 17. That's two different generations, basically.

And so I think that we do examine, and I treat it like an absolute CEO or COO of the family brand. Because you do. We have so much incoming, and things to choose from, and banks, Kim Kardashian: But they're all very separate as well. Yeah. I don'Separate.

Sit and discuss with Khloe or Kourtney. I mean, to give advice, absolutely, but as far as, like, the day-to-day managing of our own brands, and what we're naturally drawn to, and how we operate our businesses, is completely individual. Host: Do you feel like you're competing against each other?

Kim Kardashian: No, we really honestly don't. We're very supportive. I mean, Kylie and I both have beauty brands. If we happen to be at each other's houses and see products laying around, we'll discuss it, but otherwise.

We're very mindful in, on our calendars to not launch a product on the same time, but if she's launching concealers and I'm launching concealers, they would actually be such a different product. We have different. You know, skin, age demographic, exactly what she was talking about.

So we use our products so differently that there has not been any competition even in sales-wise. Right. We can see our analytics. There hasn't been any crossover.

Host: So hold on. How does this work? I'm assuming there are hundreds of companies that are coming to Mm-hmm. Every day saying, "I want you to do a paid post on Instagram," or "I want you to invest in my thing or become the spokeswoman for."

All of these people are coming. How do you sort of sort it out? What do you accept that you wanna do?

What don't you wanna do? So take us Yeah. The Kardashian, Jenner empire.

Kim Kardashian: Well, for a paid post, I am really, cautious about, like, what I spend. So if I overspend on something and paid post happens to come in at that time, I'll weigh it out and think, "Okay, well, I have to pay for X, Y, and Z, so this paid post Oh, Host: you mean your own personal expenses. Kim Kardashian: Yes. Yes, my own personal expenses.

Or if I'm even like, okay, you know, we have schooling projects, and now it's a little bit more personal for me.

If I have a paid post that comes in and I think, okay, well, this can fund X amount of people that are behind bars that can help free them with simple legal fees that they just can't afford, then that would be worth it to me, even if the post might be a little bit off-brand for me. I really weigh out different things now than I used to. Host: Okay, so what's on-brand for you?

Kim Kardashian: Any beauty, as long as it doesn't compete. Fitness, health stuff, maybe, just any health products. If I. You know, when I mentioned I was having a CBD baby shower, because I needed some calm before the storm of a fourth kid coming, every CBD company on the planet reached out.

And you just. It's. You know, it's. I it's kind of this joke also that I do if I really want something and I'm a bit lazy, I can tweet, "I'm loving Oreo.

I'm craving Oreos right now." And then on my doorstep every flavor Oreo will show up.

Kris Jenner: It's true. With her name on each cookie. Host: So are there, are there companies, though, that come to you and you say, "Look, I just, this is not, this is not me, and I'm not gonna do it," or "I just can't do it," for whatever reason? Well, absolutely. I Kris Jenner: think we've really learned, by trial and error, too, and experience.

I mean, there was a time when. I was about to say earlier that Kim and I in the beginning, would sit and have these goals we would write down for the year and what we really wanted to do. And the first thing that we talked about, and Kim's passion was, from the very beginning, was fragrance.

And that was so just her thing, was fragrance. Growing up, she loved fragrance. So that was one of our first goals that we wrote down, and something that we were able to accomplish, and that felt so good.

I'll never forget her and I sitting at the Beverly Hills Hotel at this meeting, and the guy handed us a check. Do you remember that? Kim Kardashian: And we probably went in the bathroom stall and shut the door, screaming.

Kris Jenner: We were screaming up and like, "Woo-hoo!" Yeah. And it was so exciting and satisfying and rewarding. But there's been a lot of.

You know, we've kissed a lot of frogs along the way and thrown a lot of spaghetti at the wall. You know, there were So Host: what hasn't worked for you? Kris Jenner: Well, I mean, listen, one great example that I wanted to tell you the other day was the Got Milk campaign.

I thought Kim would be so great in, like, a Got Milk campaign. Remember, like, everybody did these Got Milk campaigns. And I thought, "Oh, well, she's, like, perfect for that."

Mm-hmm. I don't know where that came from, and I'm sure I was a lot more excited and enthusiastic about this idea than the Got Milk people were. So that really never came to fruition. And then at the end of the day a couple years ago, Kim was in a music video, and she was taking a milk bath, and I thought, "You did it, Kim.

You got milk all over that body." So that was kind of, like, a fun thing. But there's been things that.

Talk about off-brand. In the very beginning, the girls did, Kim Kardashian: Oh, we did everything. We did everything from Kris Jenner: Quick Trim. Remember Quick Trim?

And we did cupcakes. And at the end of the day, you really just wanted to be curvy. Exactly. Kim Kardashian: We did everything you could possibly imagine.

If someone came to us with a product, we were just so excited that they were interested that we would do things that were really off-brand.

And I think that even that stage in our life, I look back and think that was such a learning, growing process for us, and I feel like in the last few years I've finally found my voice on what to say no to, what to really stand up Mm-hmm. How to really focus in. There could be amazing deals that come our way financially, on brand.

Everything, you know, fits my criteria, but if there's just no time, like now I feel like there's a power in saying no and having a little bit of time, you know, for my family and self and everything else that can be a balance with that.

Kris Jenner: Well, you have to have the bandwidth to be able to put that kind of energy and time and creativity into a brand or an idea that somebody wants you to be a part of. And if what they're. You know, if she's signing up for something that she's never gonna have time to do, it's only gonna be a disservice to everyone.

Host: So how does this work, though? So does somebody call you and say, "I will pay you X amount of money for a, for a post?" Is there a. What's the market, what's the market right now for a, for an Instagram post?

Hmm. Well, I Kim Kardashian: don't, I don't know Kris's type of money. Kris Jenner: I think that, what we do have is, I started to say earlier, is this great incoming of offers and deals that come through, whether it's, a private equity, a brand, a VC, a bank. You know, there's just so much coming in that we and she my kids all have to be their own CEO.

I might act as the CEO of a bigger picture and just weigh each thing that comes in. If it'I Kim Kardashian: would say a cute story, since my husband's here. So, there was a fast fashion A few of them, and they would knock off Yeezy all the time.

His color palette, designs. And so this fast fashion brand offered me a million dollars for an Instagram post. And I thought, "Okay, well, that's, you know, easy, just to wear clothes that, you know, I could pick anything that I wanted.

It's a quick post." And when I told him about it, he asked me not to do it, and said, you know, "With out of respect, I don't think that we should be giving them everything. They copy everything.

It's. You know, it's." I completely understood why he said no. I gladly said no.

And then for Mother's Day, he handed me an envelope, and it was a check for a million dollars saying, "Thank you for not posting for the other brand." And then, I don't know if I'm supposed to say this or if I have.

Or and a contract to be an owner in Yeezy as a, as a thank you. So. Yeah, Kanye. So there is power in saying no sometimes. Host: There is some power in saying no.

How do you think about your influence on the marketplace, broadly, in terms of what you project out to the public? And the reason I ask is, and you know, when Kylie tweeted at one point, I don't know if you saw this, that she tweeted that she when she didn't use Snap anymore. I saw it. She stopped using Snap.

Snap's market value literally dropped by $1.3 billion. So how Oops. I mean, more than oops, though.

But so when you post or when you speak, I mean, it's hard to sometimes probably Yeah. Who you are to some Kim Kardashian: This is always a tough one for me. Host: And what the influence is.

Kim Kardashian: Yeah. This is always something that I struggle with, because I believe that people should be themselves. Even if it's not what you agree with, even if it's not your beliefs and values, I believe in being yourself. And so when you start thinking about how you have to censor yourself so much because it could.

I mean, I personally might not say bad things about people unless I'm provoked and I have to stand up for, you know, family. But generally I try not to talk about, like, other brands. If I didn't like a particular ice cream or something, you know, that I feel like could hurt a brand, I just kinda stay away from it.

It's a big responsibility. However, I do believe that people should speak freely, and if that's not what Kylie was doing and that was authentic to her, then I don't think that there's something wrong with that. So but I struggle with that because it's like I do, I always really do care about people's feelings, and I'm really compassionate about a headline like that.

I would feel bad about it, but you also just have to be Right. At the same time. Host: How much do you think about your brand and his brand?

And I'm looking at Kanye right now, in terms of how you guys work together, and I know that you were part of of really actually remaking the way Skims actually turned out. Kim Kardashian: Yeah. I mean, our brands, we respectfully let each other have our own voices and our own brands, and create our own brands, but we're very much together in every last decision and detail that we make.

So, like, for Skims, you know, he drew the logo. He Our packaging was one way, and I thought it looked amazing, and then he walked in and had about a two-hour conversation with my whole Skims team about why it was not so amazing. But it was really inspiring

And really, when you look back, it was really trendy, the old packaging, and it I would've been sick of it by now. And he really gave us, like, amazing advice on how we want it to be classic and timeless, and all the packaging that the team was bringing us of other products in the marketplace, they were saying, "Isn't this better than that?"

And Kanye's main advice was, "Why don't you go get packaging that is the, that you think is the best of all time? It doesn't have to even be in the marketplace, but any product, and you should strive to be on that level. Why are you striving to be better than the worst?"

And it really clicked to the whole team. We all went back to work, and he picked, like, our photographers, was involved in the castings for the Mm-hmm. For Skims, and colorways.

I mean, everything you could think of. So we really are. He's, like, my ghost stylist and my ghost creative director, and it's, it's amazing to have someone that you really respect and value their creative opinion.

Host: What do you think about your impact on culture? And the reason I say impact on culture is there is a sense, and social media's been a big part of it, but I think a lot of people have looked at you and your family, as role models in many ways, where where everything is now just exposed. You Yeah.

You put it all out there, and there's something very authentic about that, but I think there's also people, especially of different age groups, who have misgivings about that, and sort of where the line is, for privacy and how much to really share or to overshare. Kris Jenner: Well, I think, from the beginning, one of the things that we said to ourselves was we wanted to have a successful show.

If we were gonna do this and put ourselves out there, then we really needed to do that. And so we said, "Let's just show everything and just be ourselves, and-" Kim Kardashian: Cut to, guys, remember that episode I'm talking about? God. There better be audio for this, 'cause I need this on a loop to play this back to Kris Jenner: Oh, my God.

I'm gonna get it. Kim Kardashian: When this episode comes out. Kris Jenner: Okay. I had a bad week a couple weeks ago.

Just remember that, too, okay, guys? A few months. Yeah. So this is gonna turn into a family feud.

So, in the beginning, we. And that, I think, was the. You know, this whole thing is the perfect storm.

I think being able to work with the family and having everybody on board, but all at the same time willing to show, you know, the good, the bad, and the ugly. Host: What do you think. We're gonna talk to Kevin Systrom, in just a little bit, who co-founded Instagram.

And there's lots of questions about, mental health related to social media. Mm-hmm. Whether it's, it's giving people good or bad body images, in terms of how they think about themselves. Whether liking is actually a good thing.

Right. You know, there's so many people. I meet young people today who say, "I just wanna get famous as quickly as possible, get as many followers as possible, and then I'm gonna figure out a way to monetize that." What do you Kris Jenner: And nobody has a plan B.

That's the problem, is if you really put all of your eggs in this basket, you know, I tell everybody that I speak to is you really have to have something to hang your hat on, and create something for yourself that sustainable, and a Right. That can grow. It's just not about being famous.

For us, we happen to be lucky enough and blessed enough to have a show, and that kind of started everything else. Okay, don't say it again. So, I you know, that's very valuable, and that's something that continues to be very successful in almost 200 countries around the Right.

In as many languages. So we got very lucky. Kim Kardashian: And it is, it is tricky.

And it is. You know, I think about when I raise my kids, and screen time, phone time, what to post, what not to post. You know, even posting things in real time, I learned from a bad experience that I had, when I was robbed, that people really knew my every move. They knew what I had, they knew where I was, what I was doing, you know.

And that to me really changed maybe the things that I post. And I still want people to feel like they're along that journey with me, but I might video something and then post it, like, 30 minutes later when I've left the location, more for privacy.

Right. But as far as mental health, I mean, it's something that, you know, I think taking the likes away and taking that aspect away from it would be really beneficial for people. And I know that the Instagram team has been having lots of, like, inner conversations with a bunch of people to get everyone's take on that, and is taking it really seriously, and that makes me happy. Host: Do you read all your comments?

Kim Kardashian: I do not. But I find myself to be extremely mentally strong, and I have people, friends that are obsessed with reading the comments, and I find that to be really unhealthy. So I have to.

I struggle with, like, having to step outside of how I feel, and thinking about, like, what if one of my children was like one of my friends that wasn't as mentally strong and would really be affected by the comments? That would really affect me. You want some water?

Host: We'll get you some water if Happy to have one. Sorry. Get some water. I had a separate question, which What?

To this. A lot of the conversation we've been having this morning is about CEOs. Oh, thank you so much. About CEOs who have felt like they are now taking or being pushed to take positions, either political positions or or positions in terms of culture and what's happening in society in a way that perhaps they didn't just a couple years ago.

You've gotten very involved in the mass incarceration, topic. But I'm curious actually from, as a, from a brand perspective in terms of how far you think you're willing to go on, you know. We've had people. We're gonna talk about gun violence in a minute actually, after this, after this session.

But you know, whether it's immigration or all of these other issues that are very political, and we live in this sort of very politicized world. You've now spent some time at the White House. Yeah. How do you think about that?

Kim Kardashian: I am a really firm believer that you should be who you are, believe in what you wanna believe in. And as a brand, I'm the type of person that I can separate political beliefs from brands. And I believe that people should have the right to believe in whatever they wanna believe in.

And so if. I don't really push politics on my brands. I also believe that, like, Kim Kardashian West is also a person, not just, like, the KKW brand. So I will speak up personally on politics when I have to and when I want to.

Host: Did you get pushback, though? There are some people who like the president, and there's some people who can't stand the president. Kim Kardashian: Yeah. I mean, for me, I focus on prison reform, and the president has done amazing things in prison reform.

I will also speak up when I feel like something is not how I feel like the world should be, and that could be immigration or other things. I'm very focused. There's a lot that we have to get done in prison reform, and I believe I will be more beneficial if I just focus on that at the moment. So I'm grateful for that relationship in that area, and I focus on that.

But that was a big thing where people, So many people advised me, "Don't go to the White House." And it didn't, that didn't make sense to me, 'cause I was like, a life.

If someone can get out of, you know, prison and get their life back versus my reputation of going to the White House where there's only one person on this planet that can make the decision, and that would be the president, and that was even a question of, you know, for the media, I. That just absolutely didn't make sense to me.

I would go see anyone in power that would have that decision to change someone's life. Host: Right. Please join me in thanking Kim and Kris and Kanye. Thank you.