Jack Ma

Charlie Rose: We've all become very cognizant of Jack and his story, and when Alibaba went public with the largest PO in history, we knew a lot more about him. So I wanna talk about his personal story. I wanna talk about how many times he tried and failed, and what kept him going.

I wanna talk about where he is today and how he got here. I begin with this question, though, Jack. Why are you back at Davos?

Jack Ma: It's a, it's a long break, for seven years. I think, my last year trip here was year 2008. But I was coming for year 2001 for the Young Global Leader for Tomorrow.

And I think, remember, I never heard about the Davos when I came. But when I came, I. And the Switzerland, so many young people demonstrate.

Was such a horrible scene that I was. And ask them why did they do it? They say, "Anti-globalization." And I say, "Why?

Globalization's a great thing. Why people you know, don't like it?" And then we come all the way for two hours here.

There's a machine gun. There's a people checking us. Say, "Oh, God. Is that, is that a forum or is a prison we're gonna go inside?"

But when I joined the forum, as the Young Global Leader, I was thrilled by, so many ideas. And for the first, three, four years, I learned what does, what does the globalization mean? What does the cooperative citizenship mean?

What about social responsibility mean? All these new ideas. And I see so many great leaders talking about leadership, and I benefit a lot.

And year 2008 and nine when the financial crisis came, I thinks, "Better go back to work." 'Cause we can never win the world by talking. So go back, spend seven years.

Now I come back, I think it's time to do something return, 'cause I learned so Let's talk about that. 12 years ago. So why I should not talking to the young global leader of today, sharing with them how we gone through? Okay. So that was the thing.

Charlie Rose: Let's start with where you are today. Just how big is Alibaba? How many people come every day?

How many people come in a week? How fast is it growing? Jack Ma: Yeah, we have, over 100 million buyers visiting our site, shopping our site, every day.

And we created 100 Million. Every day. We created, 14 million jobs for China directly and indirectly. And we grow from 18 people to 30,000 people.

18 people in my apartment, to now we have a four big campus. Compared to 15 years ago, we were big. But compared to 15 years later, we're still a baby.

Charlie Rose: How big will you be 15 years from now? Jack Ma: I think 15 years ago, I told my team that, 15 years, in the past 15 years, we grow from nothing to this size. And 15 years later, I wanted people see know about Alibaba, know Taobao, because it's already everywhere.

I want, 15 years ago when we talk about what is e-commerce, why small business can using this e-commerce, this internet can do business across the nation. And I hope 15 years later, people forget about e-commerce because they think it's like electricity. Nobody think it's a high-tech today.

Now, this is something that I don't want 15 years later, we still walk on the street talking about why and how e-commerce can help people. Charlie Rose: You tried to get into three colleges. Mm-hmm. Each time, they rejected you.

Jack Ma: No, I tried, there's a examination that young people, if you wanna go university, you have to taste, take the examinations. So I failed it three times. Right. But I lot of fail.

I fail for funny things that I failed a key primary school test for two times, and I failed, like, two, three times for the middle school, middle schools. And you would never believe in in Hangzhou, my city, there is only one middle school that last only one year.

It was changed from primary school, middle school, because our graduates of our school, no no middle school accept us because we were too bad. Yeah. I They would become a middle school. Charlie Rose: What effect did it have, though, being rejected?

Jack Ma: Well, I think we have to get used to it. We're not that good. Even today, we still have a lot of people reject us.

I think, when I in the, graduate from universities and before I you know, for three years, I tried fail into universities. So applied jobs for 30 times. Got rejected. I went for a police.

They said, "No, you're not good." I went to even the, KFC. When KFC come to China, come to my You applied.

20, 24 people went for the job. Yeah. 23 people accepted. I was the only one guy.

And we went for police. Five people, four of them accepted. I was the only guy that not receive it.

So to me, being turned down, rejected. Oh, by the way, I told you that I applied for Yeah. For 10 times, rejected.

I know you reject. I just wanna see again. Charlie Rose: They're sorry now. They're sorry now.

That's all right. 10 times you wrote them and said, "I'd like to come to Harvard." Jack Ma: Yeah. And then I told myself, "Someday I should go teach there, maybe." Charlie Rose: I think that can be arranged.

Richard Nixon came to Hangzhou. Yeah. And after that, tourists flooded the place. Yeah. And that's how you learned English.

Jack Ma: Yeah. I really like the I don't know why at 12, 13 years old, that time I suddenly fell love into the language, the English. And there's no place you can, you can learn English at that time. There's no books, English books.

So I went to the, Hangzhou Hotel, now called Hangzhou Shangri-La Hotel, because that was the hotel, can receive the foreign visitors. So every morning for nine years, I showed them around as a free guide, and they taught me English. And I think that changed me.

Today, I'm 100% made in China. I've never got a one-day train outside China. Yeah. And people when people talk to me, say, "Jack, how can you speak English like that?

Why sometimes you talk like an Western guys?" I think that was the nine years. These Western tourists opened my mind, because everything they told me are so different from the things I learned from the schools and from my parents.

So now I have a habit. Whatever I see, whatever I read, I use my mind. Think about for two minutes.

Charlie Rose: And is that how Ma Yun became Jack Ma? Jack Ma: Actually, Jack, the name was given by, a lady in tennis. She's a tourist that she came here, and she said came to Hangzhou.

We had a We become a pen friends. Ma Yun is so difficult to pronounce. So she said, "Do you have English name?"

I said, "Don't." "So can you give me English name?" She said, "Okay." She said, "My father called Jack, my husband called Jack.

What do you think about Jack?" I said, "Good." So I've been using that for that many years. Charlie Rose: Yeah. First visit to America, 1995?

Jack Ma: 1995, yeah. I've come here for a project helping the local government to building up a highway. Charlie Rose: And you tried the internet. Jack Ma: I tried the internet in Seattle.

And in a building called USA Bank. I don't know whether USA Bank is still there or not. But it's a building.

And this And my friend opened a small office, which is like, only 10% bigger than this room, and there are not a much computers in there. And he said, "Jack, you This is internet." Was I asked, "What is internet?"

He said, "You know, search whatever you want." At that time, they use Mosaic. Very slow, right? Yeah.

And I say, "I don't use it. I don't wanna type because inter computer is so expensive in China. If I destroy it, I cannot pay."

Yes. He said, "Just search it." So I searched the first word, beer. I don't know why, because easy to spell, maybe.

And I see beers from Germany, beers from USA, beers from, Japan, but there's no beer from China. And I say, "Okay." Type the second word, is China.

No data. Nothing. Nothing. And I 1995. 1995. No data about China.

So I talked to my friend. "Why not make something about China?" So we made, a small, very ugly-looking page called China.

It's, it's about It's something like I did a translation agency, we listed on there. It was so shocking. We launched it at 9:40 in the morning.

12:30, I got a phone call from my friend. He said, "Jack, you know, you got five emails." I said, "What is email?"

And they say, "These are the things." Say, people so excited. "Where are you? This is the first time I see a Chinese website on that.

How can we kinda win? Can we do something together?" So I think this is something interesting, so we should do it.

Charlie Rose: Why did you call it Alibaba? Jack Ma: Alibaba? Well, when I started, I think internet is global. We should have a global name, and a name that, interesting.

Like, at that time, the best name is Yahoo, right? I think I can So I've been thinking for many days. Suddenly think Alibaba is a good name.

So I was happened to be in San Francisco that day. And I did have a lunch, and a waitress come. I ask her, "Do you know about Alibaba?"

She say, "Yes." I say, "What is Alibaba?" She say, "Open sesame." Good. So I went on the street, ask about ten, twenty people.

They all know about Alibaba, forty thieves, and open sesame. And I think this is a good name. And start with A.

Whatever you talk about, Alibaba's always top. Charlie Rose: You have said before that in creating Alibaba, you had to create trust. Yep. Because people in China were used to face-to-face.

Yeah. How did you create trust? Jack Ma: I think, because we started by the doing business on internet, I don't know you don't know me. So how can you do things online unless you have trust?

So for e-commerce, the most important thing was trust. I think when I went first went to USA for raising money, talked to the venture capitalist, a lot of people say, "Oh, Jack, no, no. China doing business by the guanxi.

How can you do business on internet?" And I know that without the trust system, the credit system, it's impossible. To do business. So we every, in the past four, 14 years, everything we do is trying to build up the trust system, the record system.

Well, Charlie, you know, I'm so proud today. When I talk to the today in China and in the world, people don't trust each other. The government, and people, and media, and everybody think, "Ah, this guy's cheating."

But because of e-commerce, we finish 60 million transactions every day. People don't know each other. I don't know you I send products to you.

You don't know me, you wire the money to me. And I don't know you I give a person a package. I don't know him, he took something to so cross the ocean, cross river, understand.

This is the trust. We have six, at at least the 60 million trust happening every day. Charlie Rose: But you create it by creating an escrow account in the beginning.

Yep. You know, and so you'd keep the money until they got the product. Yeah. And then you release the money. Jack Ma: That's true. I mean, the escrow service is about Alipay.

Right. When I when I you know, this idea with the love Davos. 'Cause it was a big decision, 'cause for first three years Alibaba is just like e-marketplaces for information. What you have, what I have, we talk a long time, but don't do any business.

Because there is no payment. I talk to the banks. No banks wanna do it.

Banks say, "Ah, no, this thing never work." So I don't know what to do. 'Cause if I start to launch a payment system, it's against the financial legal laws, 'cause you have to have a license.

But if I don't do it, e-commerce will go nowhere. So then I went to Davos. I listened to a leadership discussion.

Yeah. Leadership is about responsibility. And after I listen to that panel, I give a call to my friends, my colleagues in the, my apartment, say, "Do it now, immediately. If something wrong, the government not happy about that, if one body has to go to the prison, Jack Ma go to the prison.

Because it is so important for China, for the world, to build up the trust system. And if you did not do it," I said, "and do not do it properly, stealing money wash, no trust record, I send you to the prison." Yeah. So that was the thing come.

And people don't like it. So many people I talked to at that time for Alipay, they say, "This is the stupidest idea you have ever got." But I Me too.

I don't rather stupid or Yeah. As long as people use it. Now we have, 800 million people using this Alipay.

Stupid things you could But Alipay is very whoever is better. Charlie Rose: Alipay is a privately held thing, it's not part of Alibaba.

No, it's a private. Let me talk about money for a second. Yeah. You have never gotten money from the Chinese government?

No. None. None. Jack Ma: I I want at the beginning. Okay. And later I don't want it because I think if the company always think about, picking money from off the government off pockets, that company is rubbish. Think about how can you make money from the customers and market, and then help customers succeed.

That's our philosophy. No money from Chinese banks? No. No. I at that time I want, and now they gonna give me, I don't want it. Charlie Rose: Yeah. All right. Your relationship with the government.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. What's your relationship? I mean, if they didn't here's what some say, that you have existed in an environment that's not, they have restricted competition for you. And that's a pretty good thing to do for a private company.

Jack Ma: Yeah. I think the relationship with the government, for us, is very interesting. For the first, five years. Because I've been working as a part-time jobber for a government organization called Ministry of Foreign Trade, 1997, for 14 months.

And I learned that you should never rely government organization to do e-commerce. And I started the business, I told my people and team, "Be in love with the government- But don't marry them." Yeah.

Respect them. Yeah. And a lot of people say, "Well, you know, government officers talking too about internet, the censorship, and this, that, and they worry about." I think it's the opportunity, it's a responsibility talking to them. Tell them how internet can help.

Charlie Rose: So you tell them, "We create jobs"? Jack Ma: Oh, yeah. I been, I think, a lot of people debate and fight against them. And in the first 12 years, anybody come to my office, I sit down, talking to them.

How we can help economy, how we can create jobs, why China will improve by the internet. I think, because internet that time is new to any government. And if you convince somebody, and you have the chance.

So today, I'm very talkative. That probably, this is why I talk to so many people. Charlie Rose: You were also seen in Hollywood.

Yeah. What are you doing in Hollywood? Jack Ma: Well, I like the Hollywood, innovation and the digital program. I learn so much about the Hollywood movies, especially the Forrest Gump.

You love Forrest Gump. I love Forrest Gump. Charlie Rose: But why do you like him?

Simple. Never give up. Never give Jack Ma: up. People thinking he's dumb, but he knows what he's doing. And I was very depressed the day, year 2002 or '03 in the States.

When I Oh, no, a bit earlier than that. I was very depressed when I could not find out a way for the internet. And I watched the movie in my friend's home, Forrest Gump.

When I see him, I think, "This is the guy we should learn from." Believe what you're doing, love it, whether people like it, don't like it, be simple. And like the word, "Life is like a box of chocolate."

You never know what you can get, right? I never know I would be here talking to you and talking to Charlie Rose. I never know. But today, I made it.

I told my people in my apartment 18, 15 years ago, "Guys, we have to work hard, not for ourself. If we can be successful, 80% of the young people in China can be successful." We don't have a rich father, powerful uncle, we don't have one dollar from bank, one cent from government.

Just work as a team. Charlie Rose: So what do you worry about? Jack Ma: I worry about today, young people, a lot of young people lose hope, lose vision, and start to complain, 'cause I we also have the same period.

'Cause when I go to It's not a good feeling being rejected by so many people. We also depressed. But at least, but later we find that the world has a lot of opportunity. How you see the world, how you catch the opportunity.

So, and the Hollywood give me a lot of, inspiration, you know? Yeah. You Charlie Rose: see But you're out there for business. Yeah. You're out there because you wanna make movies and sell them.

Jack Ma: I wanna make the movie for business-wise. We are e-commerce company. We have a lot of, products that need logistic.

But movie, TV, these are things you don't need logistics system. And movie probably is the best product that can help Chinese young people to understand. 'Cause one thing I told the Chinese people, my friends, "In American movie, all the heroes at the beginning, they look like a bad guy.

But terrible things coming, they become hero, and finally, they all survived. China, if you buy hero, all the hero died." You change that.

Because only dead Yeah. Become the hero. Yeah. So nobody wanna be the hero.

Charlie Rose: So you wanna change the Chinese definition of hero? Yeah, I wanna say Are you Jack Ma: Today, we have so many heroes live in this world. Charlie Rose: China today, are you worried the economy slowed down?

No. No. Jack Ma: I don't worry about. I think China is doing It's slowing down is much better than keep on 9%. China today is the second largest economy in the world.

It's impossible to keep 9% of the growth. If China still keeps the 9% of the growth of the economy, there must be something wrong. You will never see the blue sky, and you will never see the quality.

China should pay attention to the quality of the economy. China should not So if we have a lot of influence, you know, like the Hollywood movies things, and we have, the sports and these things in the, in the GDP, we'll be much better. So I think just like a human grow, you can never this body can never grow.

Certain time, the slow of grow of a body will slow, but you should grow your mind, grow your culture, grow your value, grow your wisdom. I think China is moving to that direction. Charlie Rose: And you saw Modi in India?

Pardon? Did you see Modi in India? Jack Ma: Not yet. I'm looking forward to that. So you'll go to India.

Charlie Rose: Yeah. Finally, there's this. You're one of the world's richest people. Your company's one of the world's richest companies.

What do you want beyond Alibaba? Jack Ma: Well, by richest people, I was, I told my s I was really not happy in the past three months when people say, "Jack Ma is the richest people of China." No. Global celebrity, they said.

No. No, I'm not, I'm not becau When I start the business No, you are. You are. I never thought 'cause how many. Yeah, maybe I am, you know.

But I think what I, 15 years ago, in my apartment, my wife, was, at that time, one of the 18 founders. I ask her, "Do you want your husband to be a rich person?" I never said rich person in China, rich person in Hangzhou.

"Or you wanna be, your husband to be respected person?" She said, "Of course, respected." Because she never believe and I don't believe we'll be rich people.

We just wanna survive. But I believe when you have $1 million, that's your money. When you have $20 million, you start to have problem.

You worry about inflation, where, which stock to buy and this, that. It's a headache come. When you have $1 billion, that's not your money.

That's the trust society give on you. They believe you can manage the money, use the money better than the government and the others. So I think today, I have the resources, do more things.

With the money we have, with the influence we have, we should spend more time on the young people. And I would say, someday, I'll go back to teach. Go back to school, spend time with the young people, and telling, sharing with them what I'd done.

So the money's not mine. I just earn happily, and having these resources, then I want, do better job. Just tell them your story.

Yeah, tell them the story, and tell them that if Jack I don't think in this world there are a lot of people be rejected more than 30 times. If we You know, the only thing we never give up, the only thing, like, we're like a Forrest Gump, we keep on fight. We keep on change ourself.

We don't complain. Whether you are successful or not successful, I find that when people, when they finish the job, or if they make the mistake, if they fail, if they always complain the others, this guy will never come back. If the guy only check himself, "Yeah, something wrong with me here, something wrong with me there," this guy has a hope.

Charlie Rose: Jack, on behalf of everybody in this audience, and our television audience around the world, thank you for taking your time to be with us. Jack Ma: Thank you. It's wonderful talk. Thanks.