Indira Gandhi

Host: Why do you as a leader of a nation of 700 million people accept an invitation to come visit a small nation of four million at the outskirts of the world? Indira Gandhi: Well, I don't think any nation is at the outskirts because after all, it's a round world. But we are all neighbors, small or big, and I think we would like Norway to know more about India.

We already have good collaboration with your country, but news about India is very scarce and not always, balanced. And as you know, we believe that all nations should get to know one another better and cooperate more to try and solve problems. Most problems today are global problems, whether they happen to take place in India or anywhere else.

Host: Yeah. The relations between Norway and India has always been good as far as I know, but not very extensive. Should this, relationship be given some concrete content? Well, Indira Gandhi: we would like to.

I don't know what is possible. You probably are aware of, the details of the collaboration we already have with fisheries and so on. Humankind is balancing on the brink of the collapse of the world economic system and annihilation through nuclear war.

Should these tragedies occur, can any one of us, large, small, rich or poor, from north or south, west or east, hope to escape? Host: As now the leader of a non-aligned movement, are you considering any concrete initiatives to get to that goal, which is a goal of all people, but very few seems to be doing something about it? Indira Gandhi: It's a, it's a goal which I think we must pursue.

We must continue to pursue even if we don't seem to succeed. At the non-alignment, conference, this was one of our major objectives, and it was one thing about which there was no argument. Everybody felt that we should first have a nuclear disarmament.

That is the nuclear powers should decide never to use nuclear weapons, to stop, stockpiling. And Host: Are any concrete initiatives being considered? Well, Indira Gandhi: except that we we appeal to them.

I don't think we can do very much more at this stage, but I think if public opinion grows, that does have some effect. All Host: this talk about, disarmament, including in the non-aligned movement, does not, prohibit the fact that you are in a certain arms race with Pakistan.

Indira Gandhi: Well, if, we could avoid war, we certainly are very much for peace, and we have never invaded or threatened another country. But unfortunately, we ourselves have faced aggression five or six times. And with that experience, we have to be ready to defend our frontiers and our people.

But you know, we spend very little compared to the size of our country or population or the length of our land and sea borders. We spend very little on defense. And when, Pakistan suddenly jumps a decade ahead of us, we have to try to make up, at least a portion of that.

They Host: jump a decade ahead. Are you referring to nuclear arms? Well, Indira Gandhi: no, ordinary arms, the conventional arms.

Although there's much talk of they're going in for the nuclear, which they have so far denied. We of the developing world have no margin of safety. We shall be the first and the worst sufferers in any economic breakdown.

In this interdependent world where you cannot stir a flower without troubling a star, even the most affluent are not immune to such disturbances. Only with coexistence can there be any existence. Host: At a non-aligned summit, one of important aspect was the North-South dialogue, where the conference more or less said it's dead or a non-starter.

What can you do in order to get it started? Indira Gandhi: Well, several initiatives have been taken, you know, Cancun and so on. It's true, nothing much has come out of it.

But I think that more and more countries in Europe are, realizing that, it must come about in some form or another. That is why we have said that, while, I mean, we are for what are called global negotiations, but we could have it in two, phases and start off with certain things which are of more immediate concern.

And that is why we have suggested a conference on money and finance, for instance. Host: What do you think are the prospects for that? I mean, doesn't seem to have been very much a positive reaction from the Western countries.

Indira Gandhi: Well, it hasn't been opposed, so far as I know. By the way, if I may, I may go back on the nuclear question. I'd like to make it very clear that we ourselves have no nuclear, bombs or anything, and we don't propose to make any.

Now, Host: I'd like to keep to this North-South thing a little bit because, what means do the Third World really have at its disposal to force the industrialist countries into doing something, into entering the dialogue? Indira Gandhi: If we were more united, I think we could do a great deal. The industrialized countries need our markets.

They need our raw materials. At the moment, their policy is rather, two-faced. You know, on the one hand, they say, "Well, we must have freer trade."

They put up barriers. And now if we don't have. If our people don't have purchasing power, then where will most of these countries, sell the goods they want to make?

Host: But why should the industrialized-lized countries enter a dialogue? At the present moment, it seems they are only losing, by entering this dialogue. No, Indira Gandhi: I think they're losing if they don't enter into the dialogue because, as I said, the economies are linked if you look into the future and not just the immediate.

But even immediately, there's hardly a country which doesn't have an economic crisis. Now, how are they going to solve it? It's obvious that the present economic system or the institutions that were built up to solve problems have, proved to be quite inadequate, so something new has to be thought of.

Host: You have proposed that as many as possible of world leaders should participate in the UN General Assembly this September. What would the purpose be of such a gigantic summit? Well, Indira Gandhi: perhaps it was a bit idealistic.

But the real purpose was that if you really got together, you know, it generates an atmosphere. And when people are feeling depressed all over the world, it, generates hope. And also, by talking about, one another's problems and possible solutions, sometimes you can hit upon something which will be.

Can be agreed to by most people. Have Host: you had any indications at all of, replies to this proposal? Well, Indira Gandhi: very vague, so far.

We regard non-interference and non-intervention as basic laws of international behavior, yet different types of interventions, open or covert, do take place in Asia, in Africa, in Latin America. They are all intolerable and unacceptable. Interference leads to intervention, and one intervention often attracts another.

No single power or group of powers has the justification or moral authority to so interfere or intervene, but you cannot condemn one instance with. But condone another. At Host: the Non-Aligned Summit, you got a mandate to follow up the Iran-Iraq War. Have you considered anything concrete?

Indira Gandhi: Well, I don't know what you mean. You see, in this world, very few things are black and white. You know, most things are somewhere in the middle.

We're in touch with both the governments. I can't say that anything very much has emerged. One Host: non-aligned country that have seen an intervention is, of course, Afghanistan, and many people in the West find your position ambiguous.

Would you like to explain this position? Indira Gandhi: I think our position is, quite clear. We are opposed to intervention, interference of any kind, and especially by troops.

But we find that such intervention has been taking place in Africa, in Asia, in Latin America. It still is taking place. And very little is said about this.

I mean, we know that governments have been removed, and puppet governments have been put up, and so on and so forth. So it seemed to us that just to, pick on one country was, not realistic.

Also, that the manner in which it was done, I think, aggravated the situation instead of helping it because, no doubt that, with this world human cry, the Soviet Union would feel threatened and surrounded and therefore want to dig in their toes even more. Host: The same applies to a certain extent to Kampuchea, where your government Mm-hmm. Supporting the Heng Samrin government installed by Vietnamese, intervention.

Does this amount to a certain, what you might call, anti-American, anti-Western bias in your foreign policy? Not Indira Gandhi: at all. No, our sympathies have been with Vietnam as they are with any country that is, that has, that is ruled by foreigners.

The Vietnamese fought very bravely against the French, and soon after that, my father and I visited Vietnam. And immediately afterwards, the Americans got involved. What for? I mean, they had nothing, no business being there.

So there we were against, American intervention. Now, what did they and the ASEAN countries and countries like Australia and New Zealand say at that time? They said, "We are fighting here to save India from China."

So our reply was, "Well, we'll deal with that question, when it, comes to us. I mean, you needn't, do this." Now, we're supporting the Heng Samrin government because we think it has the support of the peoples of the land.

And also, what we have learned of the Pol Pot regime is really too horrible for words. And journalists who have gone from the Western world as well as from India and other countries, and they were not at all communists or supporters of the Vietnamese necessarily, they've come back with the most ghastly pictures, you know? Well, we can't possibly support the, support the Pol Pot regime.

Initially, many of the Western countries supported Pol Pot. Then when we talked to them, they said, "No, we don't support Pol Pot, but we also cannot support Heng Samrin." But now they're supporting the coalition which has Pol Pot as one of its components, so we find this very difficult to understand.

We Host: went yesterday to, the reception when you were receiving people outside your Mm-hmm. And we saw people handing requests to you. What is happening with these requests?

Indira Gandhi: Well, all of them are not requests. Some are problems, personal problems with which we can do very little. I mean, they even are domestic problems.

Some are, political matters. Either they're complaints or there's in support of somebody. As it happened yesterday, it was more in support of particular individuals rather than against.

But sometime they're against people. One very large group, I don't know whether you stayed to the end, their, some of their houses have been destroyed.

Now, that is a problem because as soon as you try and settle one lot of such squatters, and you give them land and house, some kind of housing loans and what's, so on, another lot comes and squats on land which is not theirs, and this cannot be, you know, there's no solution or end to it. So sometimes they just have to be, discouraged.

The Host: Sikhs of Punjab have also been demanding greater autonomy. These various movements in different parts of the country, would you say these are centrifugal forces within the Indian society, threatening it even? Indira Gandhi: Well, in a country of our size and diversity, you know, this, these are all phases of development, and sometimes they get worse when the economic situation is worse.

Now, we've had very bad drought and so on. But in the Punjab, it's not the Sikhs, it's one political party, the Akalis. And now, when I was out of power, the Akalis were in the central government as well as in the state government for three years.

Now, if they felt so strongly about these matters, they could easily have done it 'cause the same people were there, but they didn't raise it at all. And now it's only when we have come in, and that is what, I think it's a a big indication that it is more a political movement than for demands. And they just don't, want my party to win the elections.

Great applause. You have placed a heavy responsibility on me. In a world of power blocks, I belong to the non-aligned. In a world dominated by the affluent, I belong to a poor and developing country.

In a world dominating, dominated by men, I happen to be a woman. Now, Host: in what ways do you feel this has influenced your position and your work? Indira Gandhi: I don't think it has, but I was just pointing out that people, most people look at things from a particular angle.

And because society is man-dominated, they look at it from that angle and not as a whole. You know, in Indian tradition, I'm not saying that people look at the at problems in that way, but the Indian tradition is, to see things in the round. As you know, there's a concept of the, that a whole human being is half and half.

Host: Do you feel that in your position as, Prime Minister of India, you've been able to, do something special to improve the, well, the rights of women in your society? Well, Indira Gandhi: I've tried, and by being a woman myself, this has encouraged women. Where in the.

I can't say that anything has been done very positively. I mean, we passed laws for them which helped them. But large numbers of women are not conscious of their rights.

And even when they are, now the. Because of the economic situation, sometimes it doesn't work out. For instance, we have a law about minimum wage.

Now, when, as soon as it was passed, a lot of people just dismissed the women workers and said, "We're not prepared to give you," I mean, equal wages, I meant. And the same with minimum wages they do, of course. Now, if the person is desperate for a job, she will say, "Well, all right, I'll take less, but you employ me."

So this is how they go around. But I think that this, I mean, as the economy improves, this situation will improve. More and more women are coming into, public life and yeah.

There Host: was a small news item some time ago that you got angry when you were referred to, this saying that you were the only man in the Indian government. Is that true? Indira Gandhi: Well, I consider it an insult. And Host: you do consider it an insult?

Indira Gandhi: I think so. Why should I be considered a man when I'm not? Host: Definitely. At the moment, I would say as a foreigner that it seems that the Indian, political system is under a certain strain, and that it's only your preeminent position that more or less holds it together. Maybe that's an oversimplification.

But what do you see as the, as the future of the Indian political system? Well, Indira Gandhi: I think Indians are very, resilient people and basically sound. So I've. And we've been through such vicissitudes in our long history that, we have our ups and down, but I think we find our feet.

And I think that whatever happens, the people will emerge stronger. You can't avoid crises or obstacles or troubles, but the thing is, how do you use them? And if you can use them to be stronger as a society, I think that is what is important.

Of Host: course, there are lots of rumors that, your other son, Rajiv, is being groomed to take over. Is he? No. Indira Gandhi: Firstly, the, firstly, I would not really like, I wouldn't want any of my sons to have the sort of life that I've had.

It's much too hard. And secondly, in our system, what difference can grooming make? I mean, if you say grooming, that, the, certain training, but even that there's no obvious training.

It's, if anybody learns by example. For instance, my father never, really told me, "Do this," or "Do that." But I do think that I learned a lot from him, even though I was not very much with him.

And I think that I've passed on a great deal to my sons. But in the system, it depends on the person, himself or herself. Because, firstly, the party has to win, and then the party has to decide, who.

Not only the party, but the country as a whole has to decide who they think can, represent what they want. At Host: the very end, we've been talking about different political issues and even a little bit of private ones. Yes. As the leader of the second most populous nation of the world, where would you say we are all going?

What is in the immediate future for us? Indira Gandhi: Well, immediate future does look dark, I must admit. Although I'm an optimist, and I'm sure we'll get out of it.

But I think it will get darker before there's any light.